Abortion is illegal here (but doesn't mean it doesn't happen)

[afuna]

So, abortion is illegal in the Philippines, but that doesn't stop abortion from happening. And it scares me a bit that I didn't know about it until I heard secondhand of an incident in one of the public hospitals where someone came in for excessive bleeding after a miscarriage and came out with a criminal record.

The impression I get from the story is that public hospitals are obligated to report any patients they suspect of having had an abortion, even if the patient didn't have the abortion in the hospital*. So on top of running the risk of complications from seeking out illegal and shady abortions, if there are life-threatening complications, then your average patient needs to first overcome the fear of being arrested before going to the hospital.

* or that may be because the law says that healthcare providers who are complicit in abortions are considered guilty and can be charged with the crime of providing an abortion in the first place. And that extends to saving the life of someone who's bleeding massively, if they don't report it.


...yeah, I can certainly see how that would never end badly.

On the bright side, maybe some patients won't know that the hospital will turn them in, and will only find out after they've had their lives saved, so they'll still have their lives :D (before their lives are, you know, ruined).



I've been looking around for more information about the law, or studies related to abortion in the Philippines, and it's really depressing. Lots of bleak statistics about women dying on the one hand, and lots of rejoicing over ideals that completely gloss over what happens to women on the other.


I do love the articles by people who know nothing about the Philippines though, like this one:

The request for the Philippine Judiciary to legalize abortion turns out to be a hard sell in a country that’s 90% Christian and whose churchgoing population is so large that some parishes hold their services in megamalls.

Which sounds impressive except Megamall is the name of a mall, not a generic noun, and the entire mall isn't involved; mall management sets aside for mass one of the central areas used for shows on Sundays, to entice people to go to the mall. So, crass commercialism (smart commercialism!) mixed with religion, not like waves of the faithful overwhelming the church infrastructure so much that they have to take over commercial establishemnts.

+1 for making me laugh
-1000 for showing off how ridiculously they don't understand anything about the Philippines (rest of the article didn't show much more understanding, but was less laugh-worthy)


Sometimes when I think about everything, I just want to hide my head under a pillow and pretend that none of it matters.

Contraception isn't easy to get, doctors are hit-or-miss (in part because the largest med school teaches that condoms are ineffective because the virus is small enough to slip through holes -- or is that used to teach? I'm not sure if they've changed their stance since the Pope changed his), divorce is illegal so good luck if you need getting out of an abusive relationship (though you can have annulment), abortion is illegal, post-abortion care is also illegal (no wait, legal so long as you snitch).

It goes on and on, and I still don't know enough because I'm still backing away from reading about some of the more painful stuff.

On the plus side, about ten years ago, rape was changed from a crime against chastity to a crime against the person, though some of the courts are still taking their time catching up. And there's the Reproductive Health Bill which... I want to keep track of but I'm also trying to hide from because it's frustrating to see all the comments about it.


THOUGH there are moments of hilarity, like early on one of the bishops saying that instead of contraception, we should just build more parks, because the reason that so many people have so many unwanted babies is because they have sex when they have nothing else to do at night, and parks would help people have something to do.

See, I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure that when you want to have sex, you don't turn to your partner and say "yo, I want to have sex but we shouldn't. Let's go to the park instead." (On the other hand, I'm willing to bet there are people out there who'd go to the park to have sex when they're bored of doing it in the bedroom. Hm.)

Comments

[jumpuphigh]

(On the other hand, I'm willing to bet there are people out there who'd go to the park to have sex when they're bored of doing it in the bedroom. Hm.)

My first reaction to the bishop's suggestion?
Parks+Nighttime=Sex

[kerravonsen]

Me too, alas.

[feathertail]

I'm starting to get some interesting fantasies about parks meant for this now. >.>;

[afuna]

...and I misread that with the previous comment above, and had a mental image of fantasies about bishops having sex in parks.

[feathertail]

I'm open-minded. >.>b

[pauamma]

Drive-in theaters! (OK, I'm dating myself, maybe.)

[feathertail]

But if you're dating yourself, who will you have sex with at the parks?

Ohh, wait, I see. It's one of those kinds of theaters.

[pauamma]

fvtpbtbptbfp! :-)

[feathertail]

Er, sorry. >.>;

[pauamma]

For?

[feathertail]

I'm a bit nervous about making those kinds of suggestions, especially when my gender is in the minority. >.>b

[pauamma]

Eh. Fair enough. (Cn't speak for afuna or anyone else, but I wasn't offended, personally.)

[inkstone]

That's exactly what my reaction was.

[ursamajor]

Exactly. I lived across from one of these parks for three years famous for being a gay "meetup" place. (In practice, I did come across some heterosexual groups as well. This always seemed to happen while my arms were full of groceries. It always felt slightly surreal, especially when the Canadian geese were around and honking.) Lots of very nice, very horny people going at it behind some bushes because it was more private there than it would have been at their apartments where they would have to deal with roommates. (Or they couldn't quite make it all the way home from the nearby clubs.)

[pauamma]

It always felt slightly surreal, especially when the Canadian geese were around and honking.

You owe me a monitor.

[sofiaviolet]

Oh man, the geese.

Was this the Fens or some other park?

[starshadow_rivaulx]

Re the RH Bill: I cannot, cannot for the life of me understand what is so hard about the word "option" for some of these die-hard religious conservatives.

The law does not make it mandatory to use artificial contraception if it's not what you want to do; it's supposed to give anyone else who doesn't agree with you, the chance to learn about and access such methods if that is what will work best for them. That's why they are called OPTIONS. *windy sigh*

Anyway, the whole topic is eyerolling on a major scale. I mean, if I get it right, conservatives promote natural family planning. Good! This is good. But they don't much approve of sex education in schools. Um...ok, I get how parents ideally should start off this discussion, but...how will the kiddos learn about natural family planning if not early on in school?

Myself, my parents never really addressed the subject directly. I figured it out from the Encyclopedia Britannica (the maroon covered ones) we had in the house. *grin* And bodice-ripper novels. *grin*

ps - re bishop's idea...obviously he has never seen the number of people that make out under the trees in Rizal Park, to suggest that a park *at night* is an effective family planning device! especially if the park has sufficient number of shady areas...

[afuna]

Yeah, exactly. If people, after knowing WTF is going on with their bodies looks at their options and decides they want to use contraception (either temporarily, or entirely), then that's their choice. If they instead choose to not use contraception then that's also their choice.

But either way, at least they're able to adapt to whatever is appropriate for their situation!

But the CBCP is afraid that if you give people an option, they'll choose contraception every time, and I think that -- I mean if they want to preach to their congregation, do it via the pulpit, not via the judicial system. Church sermons for churchgoers, government for the people (whether they're Catholics or not!) And no matter your religion, your religion should trust you to be able to practice what they preach, or integrate their teachings into your life (instead of forcing hell'n'damnation down your throat)


My parents never talked to me about sex either *wide grin* We did have some mandatory sex education at my (Catholic!) school, though it was mostly *thinks* getting us to draw anatomy, talk of menstruation, and a list of the names of VDs and their side effects that we had to memorize. Pretty dry stuff.

I learned about sex literally from bad slash (and if that doesn't illustrate how ridiculous the whole thing avoiding sex education is, I just don't know >_>). Also from good slash, and sometimes novels and stuff.


And yeah *snerks* park + night = no sex is completely ridiculous, especially since everyone so far whose commented has had the opposite assocation....

[starshadow_rivaulx]

Were you shown that horrible anti-abortion film, the one where they show an actual late-term abortion taking place? For the love of all that was holy, that thing scarred my entire batch for life. I missed that one, strangely enough - which means someone was looking out for me, I guess.

Not that I would have seen much, I'd have closed my eyes and kept them shut till the end of the process.

[xtradry]

The parents allow the school to show such graphic films? And I thought my experience was bad! I went to an all-girls Benedictine school back in the 80s (OMG I so feel old for saying that; I'm only in my thirties) where the Sister who taught health showed us slides of diseased penises. I kid you not. SLIDE SHOW. Penises with VD! One of my batchmates fainted. LOL. I guess that's one way of contraception -- gross everyone out so much that they can't even think of male genitalia.

(FWIW, a disproportionately large percentage of my class dated women in high school. Related?)

[starshadow_rivaulx]

There wasn't any outcry from the parents, as far as I know. It was the kind of convent school where my batchmates were the third or fourth generation of their families to attend, so I suppose the mothers felt the school could do no wrong.

Diseased peen...*mind boggles* I will never cease to be amazed by the things that impressionable teenagers are shown in schools.

As for any correlation between the sight of diseased peen and women dating women - it's possible. I mean, slide show of diseased peen...*shudder*

[afuna]

O_O That sounds very, err..... whoa.

[afuna]

Erk, no I don't think I ever was. Or if we were, I've blocked it out of my memory. I *do* remember teachers describing stuff, but we were never shown a video. (For which I am grateful! To who or what, I don't know)

[exor674]

... memorizing the names of VDs and their side effects? I don't think VDs are one of those things when knowing their "secret name" will help conquer it.

[afuna]

Ahhaha, now I'm imagining some superhero flying across the city, yelling out the names of VD in order to ~vanquish~

I think it's because our Department of Education mandated that certain information be present in the curriculum for sex education, and my school, not knowing what to do with it, decided that infodumping would be sufficient to fulfill the requirements.

But then my school has never known how to handle even the most innocent things related to sexuality --I have told you about our prom right? *G*

[exor674]

Mmm, infodumps!

( And no you haven't! Yay fail? )

[feathertail]

Stuff like this makes it clear what the other side's agenda is. I'd say they're defeating their own purpose, since outlawing contraception and the like only makes abortions more likely, but it seems like their real purpose is just to control women and ruin their lives.

You'll have to forgive me if I'm a bit slow on the uptake. I was raised in an ultraconservative family, and abortion rights have been the hardest progressive notion for me to wrap my head around. I'm still nervous about some of it, but I really don't want to be on the side that's this stupid and mean.

[xtradry]

"it seems like their real purpose is just to control women and ruin their lives"

IMO, you're absolutely correct. The motivations behind the prohibitions against both contraception and abortion can't possibly be preservation of unborn life. They are the same as the motivations behind female genital mutilation. Heaven forbid women enjoy sex! If they unintentionally get pregnant, they WILL be punished by being made to carry the fetus, whose potential for life outside the womb is valued more highly than the woman's actual life.

I have a 3-month old whom I wanted more than words can express, but I am the first to admit motherhood is not easy.* Furthermore, someone who has been pregnant a few times (and grieved deeply the times I miscarried because I so greatly valued that potential for life), let me tell you pregnancy is no picnic even when you're doing it out of love. Imagine going through pregnancy and childbirth against your will? I can't. It's a painful, injurious experience that must seem like torture for women forced to undergo it.

Childbirth and post-partum are so horrible that, I am convinced, if more women were realistically educated about it, the birth rate would drop dramatically world-wide. See, e.g., http://womenshealth.aetna.com/WH/ihtWH/r.WSIHW000/st.36127/t.36568.html ("It is expected that you will have pain when urinating for at least several days after delivery, whether or not you had an episiotomy (a surgical cut to widen the vaginal opening during delivery). ... A large fraction of women have urine or bowel incontinence, or both. In some women, this is caused by muscle stretching, tears or tone problems. In most women, however, the cause of the problem is stretching with temporary damage to the pelvic nerves. ... Hemorrhoids are common in the postpartum period and may cause itching or bleeding from the rectal area.") That's just the tip of the iceberg. I have no earthly idea why some women chose to do it over and over. I would never have an abortion (I use contraception to prevent the need), but I wouldn't presume to deny anyone else that right.

*FWIW, I know that motherhood for the privileged is different in the Philippines. My mom had yayas for each of us, and additional help on top of that. But I think my experience in the US is comparable because I am lucky enough to have had live-in, full-time childcare since before I returned to work. My point is this: even under the best of circumstances, even with all my admitted privilege, it's not easy. The only way caring for an infant is easy is if you abdicate completely. You can hire someone to do it for you 24/7 (i.e., an additional night-shift nanny to save yourself the sleep deprivation), which I know many people do. But that's not something I am comfortable doing. Instead I nudge my husband to get up for the baby. ;-)

Sorry for the TMI tl;dr afuna. You posted on a topic near and dear to my heart!

[afuna]

*nods quietly* I do believe that some people are just concerned and perhaps have not thought things through -- but I do also think that even then that doesn't justify what ultimately ends up being the issue of controlling women (which is a longwinded way of saying, I agree with you)

And FWIW, I was also raised in a conservative environment, and I can sympathize with struggling with conflicting ideals when abortion as a topic comes up. Because it's so very hard to pick apart all the various issues, and it's a highly emotionally charged topic.

Mostly what it comes down to -- and excuse me for babbling a bit, I've been turning this over and over in my head -- is that while neither side rejoices in abortion, the pro-choice movement still lets a woman of her own volition choose not to have an abortion, while not forcing women who need it (for whatever reason) to not have an abortion, whereas banning abortion takes away any element of choice from women who would not have gotten an abortion anyway, and women who need an abortion. (which again is, I think, a longwinded way of saying that I agree with you).

[feathertail]

Heh, yeah. >.>b

The problem I'm still having, in my mind, is that I find it hard to consider a fetus a nonperson. It strikes me as a rationalization made up after the fact, and the reasons I've seen for it ("They're so ugly," "They're parasites," "They lack what it means to be human") are the same reasons I've seen applied to other minority groups, like the disabled. Who are, incidentally, much more likely to be aborted.

I'm just not sure how to reconcile that with the Bad Stuff that women go through, and I don't see how laws could help. It seems profoundly unfair to force someone to give birth, and I don't see any way to prevent "irresponsible" use of abortion without taking it away from someone who needs it.

[feathertail]

On further reflection, I think part of the reason I'm troubled by the "It's just a blob of tissue so deal with it" view is because it negates other people's experiences. It seems patronizing to every woman who feels like she's bonding with her fetus. And while I understand that it's meant to reduce the stress that some women feel when considering an abortion, it seems like it does so by negating it. It amazes me that people will fight so hard to save tissue blobs when they're called "preemies" instead of "fetuses."

I'm hesitant to say as much because I'm afraid I'll get eaten alive for it, because I don't have an answer yet, and because I don't want to give ammunition to people who'd use it to control women. I'm just really uncomfortable sometimes with the way the discussion is framed. But if you'd rather I talked through it on my own journal, I'm okay with that.

[feathertail]

I'm sorry for tolling you here. I should not have used your journal as a place to work out my feelings about such a sensitive issue.

[afuna]

This is... very belated, but I didn't mind the conversation thread. It's just that at some point, I sat down to think about things for a bit, and that bit became a day, and that day became a week, then a couple of months...

[feathertail]

It's okay. I'm just not sure what to think or say, and I'm scared of saying Tue wrong thing.

[afuna]

Heh, yeah I can sympathize. I've been doing a lot of reading of people who've been doing social justice work longer than I've even been aware of social justice, trying to gain context.

It's not easy /o\

ETA: which isn't to say it's not worth trying! just that... I am trying to convince myself (and mostly succeeding) that it's okay that it's not easy, because it's not meant to be.

[feathertail]

*the

I think it's an issue worth trying to understand, I just haven't succeeded and I'm not sure how, either. I also feel like I shouldn't have or express an opinion about it, because I've been told as much (not by you).

[vass]

For whatever it's worth: abortion was only recently fully legalised in my state, and we don't have the excuse of being a Catholic country.

[exor674]

... wait, so it's ( sorta ) illegal to save somebodies life?

( also o.O about using a mall for mass, even just PART of a mall, except doesn't that seem sorta anti-religious trying to use god to make people spend money? )

rape was changed from a crime against chastity to a crime against the person

...... WTFFFFFFFFF?

( I have to wonder if there are any provisions for "abortions" in medically nessecary cases? )

[afuna]

Nah, it's legal to save someone's life *but* if you suspect the life you saved was in danger because she'd had an abortion, then it's illegal not to report that person -- and unfortunately that means that some people will delay going to the doctor until they're really sure there's no other choice, by which time it might be too late.

Re: the mall ahahaha yeah.

I don't think it's entirely cynical; it's not like anyone is advertising to the people while they're at mass, or the communion wafers say "sponsored by $product" or anything. And most people probably still prefer church to going to the mall to go to mass, but I guess it helps people who don't have enough time to do both!

(I'd feel a tiny bit better about it though if the other mall which had tried to set up a small mosque -- just a room really! -- for their Muslim vendors weren't shouted down :()

[exor674]

... Now I am imagining laser-etched communion wafers!

( Oh how *dare* they for wanting religious diversity and a place to worship! And I'm assuming that wasn't for the stupid bullshit reason that something like that would be attempted to be protested against here! -- ofc, either kinda is just horrible. )

[afuna]

(yeah, it was something like "but it will attract the wrong type of people!" to the mall -- protests by the neighboring gated community where mostly affluent folks lived. It was really frustrating and disgusting all over :-()

[exor674]

( Okay, maybe that *is* the kind of bullshit I'd expect from people here... "racism"/religionism is so 1600s )

[surpassingly]

/hugs, hugs

Have you been reading the Newsbreak reports on it? They have a special report on abortion -- chilling, heartbreaking stuff. Do check it out, if you haven't already.

AFAIK (I may be wrong, but I guess the Philippine judiciary is becoming my sort of-expertise) unless it's in the sense of there being a case that has a gray area w.r.t. abortion and the judiciary interprets the existing laws in such a way that does not impose a penalty on the person who had the abortion, the judiciary can't do anything to legalize abortion. That task falls mainly on the shoulders of the legislative. So, there's another aspect in which that quote is wrong. Articles written by people who (1) don't actually know enough about the Philippines and (2) seem to enjoy passing judgment on a place whose issues they don't even acknowledge, much less understand, really make me want to rip arguments (or people! but mostly arguments!) to shreds. ~_~ Siiiiigh. I'm sorry the things you've been reading are so awful and are making you sad.

/more hugs!

[afuna]

I had not been familiar with Newsbreak! *follows on Twitter*

*hugs a looooot in gratefulness* And ooh I had not caught that, but you are of course (♥ ♥ ♥) right.

I suspect they don't know anything about any place though! Because come to think of it, I'm pretty sure that most places with a judicial/legislative split have the same way.

I wish you lots and lots of looove ♥

[marcelle42]

Pre-Roe v. Wade (the U.S. Supreme Court case that ruled that women should be able to make private medical decisions, including abortion), that kind of reporting on possible abortions was required in U.S. hospitals, too. It was particularly troubling, because you couldn't guarantee that folks doing illegal abortions were at all skilled, and so you were more likely to have complications, and less likely to seek care for them.

One of the many good things about making/keeping abortion legal is that when it's legal, it can be regulated -- like, only licensed doctors can do it. On the other hand, the conservatives in the U.S. just try to regulate it out of existence, by making it too complicated or expensive to be accessible. But when done by a competent, trained physician, abortion is such an incredibly safe procedure -- safer than childbirth, by far.

[pinesandmaples]

The former PM of Trinidad Patrick Manning said, during an official appearance while he was in office, that poor people should buy TVs so they would have something to do in the evenings instead of having sex and making more babies. (We don't talk about why, because that would be naughty.) When rooibos told me that story, I didn't believe her. But it's true!

[raingirl]

Sad topic.

Personally I don't like abortions (does anybody really like them?), but would never ever want to keep someone from getting one. It is their choice to make, not mine.

There's a book called 'freakonomics' that talks about abortion from a totally statistical perspective in the US. It says that there's a very strong statistic showing the violent crime rate dropped significantly around 15-18 years after abortions became legal. Um, unwanted babies don't have good lives? It's a weird statistic, and like all of them should be taken with a grain of salt, but it does highlight what people say about the extremist anti-abortionists caring more about the unborn than the baby once it's here.

I have tried numerous times to have an open discussion with people who are in the extremes of this topic, and I find the problem to be that they don't want to do that. They don't want to look at what they believe in, just believe. It makes it hard to talk with them and actually I think it hurts their side in that maybe if they could verbalize the core reasons more people would understand where they are coming from. (I don't think I wrote that very well, but I hope people get my point.)

Hurray for questioning, listening, caring and being open!